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 Swinging arm: how to unbolt?

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FRRRanky

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PostSubject: Swinging arm: how to unbolt?   Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:20 pm

Hi,

I'd like to get out the rear swinging arm of the Atlas, but impossible to open the lateral socket (Inbus) screws that fix it (the nuts at the inner side are off).
Any "astuce", any trick?

Frank
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Nick

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PostSubject: Re: Swinging arm: how to unbolt?   Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:29 pm

Hi there,

I think your bolts must be seized. I recently dismantled my rear suspension and once the nuts were off the hex (allen) bolts just unscrewed.

Nick
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PostSubject: Re: Swinging arm: how to unbolt?   Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:03 pm

Nick wrote:
Hi there,

I think your bolts must be seized. I recently dismantled my rear suspension and once the nuts were off the hex (allen) bolts just unscrewed.

Nick

Hi Nick, I resolved this before cmas, those bolts are not screwed into the frame, just needed a 2lb hammer to get them out
Anecdote: none of the swinging arm bearings contained grease any more - but paint. One of the former owners brushed some paint on the frame and it found its way into the bearings (I have no idea how it could pass the seals).

Frank
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Nick

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PostSubject: Re: Swinging arm: how to unbolt?   Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:37 pm

Glad to hear you've sorted it out.

I'm about to go back through all the swinging arm and suspension linkages and grease them. I got some replacement seals from the local KTM shop (although they had some Kawasaki seals which were a perfect fit but three times the price...). Still the other tip I got was to use 'water repellant' grease - picked some up at the local mountain bike shop.

I was a bit surprised to find that all the bearings in the linkages are plain steel - I was expecting them to be bronze bushes. When mine wear out I will get some phosper replacements made up.

Nick :-)
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FRRRanky

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PostSubject: Re: Swinging arm: how to unbolt?   Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:47 am

Hi Nick,

water repealing grease is a good idea Thx for this!
Are your shure that you have pure steel bearings? This should not work, steel on steel will not resist at all (there is very high friction thus damage when two sliding materials do have an equal cristalline structure).
On my old Atlas the inner bushes are made of bronze or something comparable, but the typical "golden color" is only visible on the bushes heavily damaged! In deed, those beeing in good condition appear to be "steel", but they aren't!

Franky
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Nick

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PostSubject: Re: Swinging arm: how to unbolt?   Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:29 am

Hi Franky,

Thank you for pointing out that the bearings only appear to be 'bronze' if damaged. The good news is then that my bearings are in good condition!

Nick :-)
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FRRRanky

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PostSubject: Re: Swinging arm: how to unbolt?   Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:59 am

Nick wrote:
Hi Franky,

Thank you for pointing out that the bearings only appear to be 'bronze' if damaged. The good news is then that my bearings are in good condition!

Nick :-)

Hi Nick, today I worked out one of the bushes of my 2nd Atlas and investigated in the catalogues:
The material is called "Permaglide" with a f****g complicated sandwich of :

* compound of lead and Teflon (PTFE) at the most inner shell
* layer of bronze
* layer of (relatively soft) steel
* outer protection layer of zinc

So this is why there was a bronze color on the damaged ones (where the lead/teflon compound is off).

Good news:
1st: it's "maintenance-free" (not for eternity as we now know)
an can work without grease (I'll check asap if any grease can be used because of the teflon =>>> See EDIT ).

2nd: it's common standard: the one I worked out was PAP2025-P10. It seems that the lead containing P10 will be replaced by P14 (compound of teflon and zinc sulfide).

Frank


EDIT ===============

Lubrication
Permaglide® P1 contains dry lubricants and therefore does not
need lubrication.
[...]
One-off lubrication is not permissible.
Oil and grease lubrication, even in very small quantities,
impairs material transfer during running-in.

Paste formation
Over time, grease mixes with abraded particles from the
bearing to form a paste that promotes wear. Solid lubricants
such as zinc sulphide, molybdenum disulphide or similar
grease additives promote this paste formation. For this reason,
they are not permissible.
Exceptions
If grease lubrication is unavoidable in exceptional cases,
the bearing should be relubricated regularly in order to
counteract paste formation.
Examples:
■ corrosion protection of the mating surface
■ simple sealing against contamination.
However, a corrosion-protected mating surface (page 21) or
a different seal type for the bearing (page 22) is nevertheless
more advantageous in such cases


Operating behaviour

Running-in process
During the running-in process, part of the running-in layer is
transferred to the mating surface, Figure 25 to Figure 27:
■ this compensates uneven areas
■ a mating surface with a low coefficient of friction is formed,
which acts favourably on the operating behaviour
■ after running in, some of the porous bronze layer is visible on
the sliding layer as individual areas of differing sizes.
This shows:
– that the bearing is running correctly.
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Nick

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PostSubject: Re: Swinging arm: how to unbolt?   Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:49 pm

Hi Franky,

What an interesting post - amazing what you can find out.

The point about creating a 'grinding' paste is well made. I was thinking that it would be necessary to clean the linkage out regularly to prevent this but without your advice I would have coated the bearing 'bolts'. What I think I will do is put a thiin layer of my water resistant grease on the end of the bearing so that it helps the thin rubber seals do their job.

I guess the same principle applies to the actual swinging arm bearings(?).

Nick :-)
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FRRRanky

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PostSubject: Re: Swinging arm: how to unbolt?   Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:30 am

Hi Nick

1st: It's highly probable that the swinging arm bearings are the same.

2nd: I think the simple O-rings are a crucial point.
If I well understood, it works like this: the bearings are autosealing themself: when they are in good condition, water cannot enter between the bushes and the axis. But from the moment there is some play, water can pass (and these simple o-rings won't prevent this).
In 20 years, this water can corrode the steel axes... e.g. you remember the long axis in the mitle of the linkage bone? On both Atlas it's heavily corroded on *one* side - it's where water stands due to the inclination of the bike on the side-stand.

Now there's an other point: these bearings are not only maintenance-free, they are "unmaintainable". When you demount them, you damage the teflon-layer created by the running-in process. Now you'll have some play between the axis and the bush - and the water will enter.

It might be an idea to use the comparable Permaglide "P2x" - series - they are made for lubricated working. Personally I prefere bearings that I can look at every 10 tsd km without destroying them just by demounting.
Imagine, when you take out the swinging arm e.g. for changing a closed chain, you damage the bearings ....

The datasheets of all types of Permaglides will follow in 1-2 weeks.

Frank
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